CRA /Mayor Meeting July 7th 2010

Meeting started at 12:50

Those present:
For the Town Hall:
Francisco Blaya, Mayor.
Jacqueline Gálvez, Councillor for Foreigners.
José Antonio Román, Councillor for Urbanism.
Ricardo Fernandez, Lawyer.
For the CRA:
Bob Owen, Chairman.
Barrie Eveleigh.
Pete Pitt.
John Daws.
José Navarro.

1. J.N. and J.G. agreed to share the role of translators for this meeting.

2. Secondly, permission was asked for B.E. to record our meeting with a voice recorder. F.B. said there was no problem.

3. The meeting begun with Jose thanking all those present for attending the meeting, especially the Mayor.

4. B.O. asked “In the recent meeting between ASHC and the Mayor and meeting between the CRA and councillor Galvez the minutes state that you are now going to enforce a Entitad on Sector A and then presumably the rest of Camposol. This contradicts the possible middle way forward that has been discussed with you in meetings with the CRA over the last 9 months. Is this what you intend and if so why the change in policy?”

F.B. explained that they had not changed their policy towards Camposol, they are following the procedure laid down by the law relating to not only Camposol but to all urbanizations. They had been looking to find a formula that would be the best way forward for the procedure of the self management of Camposol. He also stated that the Plan General, the Plan Parcial and our contracts state that Camposol will be run by an entity. The Council are looking at the best way to assist with the collection of community fees as they found that the problem of how to ensure that all residents paid their fees was the biggest fear when the first entity was set up on A Sector some years ago. He went on to say that it has to be clear that all the costs associated with this and the maintenance of the community will have to be met by the residents and they have always said that. He added that “Camposol should be self sufficient.” “The Council will ensure that the administration is being done properly.” He went on to say that they are trying to find administration companies that have experience of the type of urbanization such as Camposol and what they will have to do with that company is find a way to finish the urbanization. Entities have duties regarding conservation and maintenance. To get Camposol up and running the residents will be responsible for the street lighting, cleaning and conservation of landscaping areas. These landscaped areas are in fact being looked after by the residents already. The Mayor thought that the best option is to suggest two or three administration companies and we can choose whether to go with one of those or look elsewhere.

J.G. stated the Town Hall have to deal with representatives of all homeowners, and not just a residents association.

F.B. said the Town Hall will study how to elect this representative committee of all B, C and D proprietors.

5. B.O. “In the Plan Parcial for B, C & D it states that these sectors when taken over by the Council will become part of the entidad that will have been formed for A Sector. How can this now be amended to your proposal of different entidads for different sectors?”

F. B. The matter of whether there will be one or two entities or whether they will come together is complicated and it might be better to have several because of the size.

B.E. made the point that the Garrigues report states that B C & D sectors join A sector’s conservation body.

R.F answered by stating that there are no legal restrictions and once the administration is put in place we can organize ourselves as we wish. We could even have separate administrations for poligonos if we like although each separately managed area would have to contribute to the common facilities such as that of the treatment works
.
F.B. said that because of the reality of the situation and especially the street lights, the self management should function now.

B.E. “Are you saying we should start the entity process on B, C & D now?”
J.G. “Yes.”

B.E “Even though the infrastructure is far from being up to standard or completed?”

F.B. & R.F. both said yes but it would still have to be completed.

J.G added that we “would be paying for the street lighting not mending the roads.”

F.B “The Council have to by what ever means ensure Masa finish the Urbanization by taking the guarantee or whatever.”

B.E “But we know and the Mayor has agreed that there is a big shortfall between the guarantees and the amount needed to put things right.”

F.B “First we have to get that guarantee and see what we can do with it. We are going to take the route that will finish the urbanization. We will see what the administration company can do, we shall see what the bank guarantees are and what we can do but we have to find that route.”

B.E. Shouldn’t there be a detailed survey done by engineers to determine what the cost will be.

J.G “They are doing that. The detailed survey goes back to Masa telling them what is needed.”

J.A.R. stated that they already had reports for all Camposol.

B.E. questioned this on the basis that there has not been any evidence of the presence of the necessary engineers or the type of investigation that would be needed. A suitable survey would for instance need such things as test bores to investigate the underlying problems with the roads.

B.O. “Can we summarise?” You believe we have come to a crossroads where we have to start looking after things ourselves by way of an entity or the like, but we will not be responsible for unfinished works or works not up to standard.

R.F said we should not worry, we (the council) shall have to do what we have to do, and we do not have to complicate your lives. It is the council’s responsibility to ensure Camposol is finished to the set standards. At the same time we (the residents) have to organise to pay for expenses relating to the responsibilities that we take over. (Street lights, street cleaning and green areas)

F.B. “An Entity or any other form will not be responsible for any part of the infrastructure that had not been accepted by the council as up to standard and fit to hand over. The initial entities will run in parallel with the council administration. The council will be responsible for getting the infrastructure up to standard before handing it over to the entity. The council will seize the bank guarantees, decide with us on priorities and attend to them. The council will then seize land, assets and anything else to secure funds to finish of the infrastructure.”

P.P. asked if the Town Hall have to wait until the 2013 deadline to take action.

R.F. stated that because of the building phases are not completed, we have not to wait until 2013 and this deadline should not be considered at all.

J.G. stated the Town Hall is actually planning this and that the Council is no longer dealing with MASA in a friendly way.

6. B.O. “Will the residents of Camposol be expected to pay for the shortfall?”

F.B. stated that the shortfall was for the council to sort out and it should not be of concern to us, it was their job to ensure everything was finished to standard.

B.E. asked what the monetary amount of that shortfall is.

J.A.R. stated they have not quantified it yet.

7. B.O. raised the subject of the database.

F.B. said the council and admin company were able to compile that from their own and others records.

8 J. N. stated that duties about conservation and about maintenance are separate duties, and not the same one. And that Entities have mandatory duty of conservation, but not in maintenance, as it can be read in the Garrigues report. Therefore is no obligation for a virtual entity to pay for the electric power to the street lights and that Garrigues Report and article 26 of law 7/1985 support this position.

F. B. stated the Town Hall is not able to pay for the street lighting. It is the residents responsibility.

R.F. stated that, anyway, in the actual legal situation of Camposol, homeowners have to pay for street lighting. He also stated that this is just a detail and the important thing for Camposol as a whole was to form an entity or other form of self-management.

J. N. stated this particular detail is an important one for our members.

R. F. stated that once an Entity (or another form of self management) is running, further discussions about particular responsibilities can be arranged.

9. B.O. “As you are aware there is an ongoing strategy from Masa with possibly the assistance of Iberdrola to cut off the street lighting on Camposol. It will not be long before there is complete darkness and Camposol becomes an open house to every thief in Spain. This is obviously not acceptable and as the Mayor you have a legal duty of care, as stated in the Garrigues report, for all citizens on Camposol. Is it not about time that you took direct action to correct this serious situation?”

F.B. stated we must organise ourselves the sooner the better, to try to resolve this because the Town Hall can not. However, the Town Hall will do whatever it is legally bound to.

10. B.O. “At the last CRA meeting with the Mayor the council lawyer said that the problems with the rambla on sector D, which was holding up the acceptance of sector B, C & D, was not a major issue. Can we have an update on how this matter is progressing?”

R. F. stated that it is really a major issue but that is progressing through normal legal procedures. There was nothing new to report at this time.

11. B.O. “What is the latest on the Medical Centre Opening?”

F.B: “Medical centre will open this autumn, quite likely September. There are only a few small requirements to get it completed”

12. B.O. “What is the latest on the construction of the community centre?”

F.B.: “Contracts for building of the Community Centre were signed yesterday. They now have one month to start building”

13. B.O. “As you are aware there are many disabled car badge holders on Camposol but no parking spaces allocated for their use in the two commercial centres. Can this be corrected?”

F.B. said the council would investigate the situation of disabled parking bays.

B.O. pointed out that the taxi rank was unused and a waste of three parking spaces.

14. B.O. “With the hot weather and tourist season upon us, as you kindly did last year, could you increase the number of rubbish collections per week during this period?”

F.B. said refuse collection was still not being paid by Masa, but they will look into it.
Despite that, J.N. agreed to personally talk with Salvador Ardil, the councillor in charge of refuse collection, who was not present at the meeting.

The meeting closed at 14:20.

CRA/J Galvez Meeting 16th June 2010.

Those present:
Jackie Galvez (JG)
Greg Green (GG)
Bob Owen (BO)

The meeting started at 11.15am.

1. In the recent meeting between ASHC with the Mayor the minutes state that the Mayor is now going to enforce a Entitad on Sector A and then presumably the rest of Camposol. This contradicts the possible middle way forward that has been discussed with yourself and the Mayor in meetings with the CRA over the last 9 months. Why the sudden change?

JG stated that there was still a middle way intended but the Mayors view was that the best way forward for Camposol was for there to be an Entidad supported legally by the Council. This would entail an Entidad Committee elected by the homeowners of A working with an administrator to agree a budget and collect an agreed annual quota for all owners which would be paid into a Camposol A account solely for Camposol purposes. The Council were looking in to ways that legal support could be provided to the Entidad which would allow for bad debtors to be pursued and made accountable for the paying of their quota using Council resources, rather than having to use the Spanish courts which would be expensive and drawn out.

This process would be to call a meeting of all owners on A and select a management committee which would then agree a budget with an appointed administrator.

JG stated that she hoped this process would be put into place before the end of 2010.

JG said that this would then allow the problem of street lighting and security to be taken over and resolved by the Entidad.

GG asked what would happen if Masa had not completed the Sector as per planning consent.

JG said that the guarantees were in the process of being applied for but Masa, as expected, were drawing the process out and she had heard that they were currently tidying up the green areas on A Sector. She stated that she still believed the guarantees would be paid unless Masa completed all the work outstanding but this would still take some time.

GG asked, if the guarantees were not paid then how would the necessary work to roads etc.. be completed before the proposed acceptance at the end of the year.

JG replied that the sector would not be taken over if the infrastructure for the street lights was not certified as functional by the Council engineer but the roads and green areas would be brought up to standard once the guarantees were received at a later date.

GG asked what exactly the Entidad was expected to pay for.

JG confirmed that the list in the Bye Laws were correct but said that full responsibility for roads would only be imposed after they were brought up to acceptable standards before or after acceptance.

GG asked which street lights were the responsibility of the Entidad.

JG replied all.

Prov 1: GG asked if it was still the intention to have two Entidads for Camposol.

JG replied that the Mayor thought that was the best way forward with an Entidad for A Sector followed by a separate Entidad for B, C & D Sectors. She thought that it would be beneficial for A to be used to formulate the procedures and the lessons learnt be put in to practice on B, C & D.

GG made it clear to JG that there would a lot of people not happy with this arrangement and the Garrigues report indicated that there would legally be one Entidad for the whole of Camposol. He also said that many people living on B, C & D Sectors resented the fact that an Entidad would be set up under negotiated rules for A sector on which they would have no say and yet still have them imposed on them at a later date.

JG replied that to the Council it seemed logical to separate the sectors because of the main road dividing them and she was not aware of there being a provision for one Camposol Entidad as written in the Garrigues report. She said she would look in to it. She also stated that it was only legally possible for the Council to negotiate with the homeowners of A and the Entidad committee re the acceptance and takeover of A.

Prov 2 : What do the inhabitants of Mazarron pay in IBI and what do they receive in the way of services for this payment.

JG used her only circumstances as an example. She stated that she lives in a townhouse with no garden on a standard street in the area. She pays approximately 300 Euros a year and this is used by the council to pay for:

• Council administration building and services.
• Local police and fire services.
• Roads.
• Street lights.

Prov 3 : GG asked why this system could not be applied to Camposol.

JG made the following points:

• The amount of IBI she pays is for a small town house and the 300 Euros is equivalent to what is charged for a two bed villa with swimming pool on a medium size plot on Camposol.

• Everything is relevant to what you pay. The roads in her area are in a poor state and only ever get repaired under grant money obtained from the central government which was a rare event. There are very few street lights.

• All urbanizations, small & large, and apartment blocks had their own conservation body and pay extra management fees.

GG asked if there was any way that this system would or could be put in place for Camposol?

JG stated that this was impossible as the authorization for the development of the Camposol Urbanization in both Plan Parcial was agreed subject to there being an Entidad formed.

2. There is some concern from our members that if guarantees for all of Camposol are taken from Masa at the same time that they will used to put A Sector right as it is being accepted first and nothing left in the pot for the remaining sectors. Can you confirm the situation with this.

JG stated that monies recovered from guarantees could only be spent on the Plan Parcial for which the guarantees applied. This meant that guarantees for B, C & D Sectors had to be applied to work on those sectors.

3. At the last meeting with the Mayor the council lawyer said that the problems with rambla on sector D, which was holding up the acceptance of sector B, C & D, was not a major issue. Can we have an update on how this situation is progressing?

JG confirmed that the lawyer was confident that if the proposed plan was submitted by Masa and approved by the Confederation Hidragrafica (CH) then the acceptance and issues of all licences for Sectors B, C & D could proceed without the artificial rambla being constructed.

GG told JG that from recent information received from CH in Murcia there had been no communication from Masa about this plan and therefore nothing was happening.
JG agreed to speak with the Council architect to confirm the situation and she said she would come back to us.

GG then asked if this happened and Masa did not build the rambla then who would pay for it. JG didn’t have an answer for this.

GG stated that this was a very important point as at some stage even if the CH approved the project, if it was not built, they could still come along at a later stage and insist the rambla be re-enstated to its original condition.

4. As you are aware there is an ongoing strategy from Masa with possibly the assistance of Iberdrola to cut off the street lighting on Camposol. It will not be long before there is complete darkness and Camposol becomes an open house to every thief in Spain. This is obviously not acceptable and as the Mayor has a legal duty of care, as stated in the Garrigues report, for all citizens on Camposol, is it not about time the Mayor took direct action to correct this serious situation?

JG stated that this was still the responsibility of Masa but after GG pushed her about the duty of care the Mayor had to the residents of Camposol she agreed to speak with the Mayor about the situation and come back with a reply.

5. Now that the infrastructure on Camposol, especially the sewage and bridge, is showing regular signs of failure can we put in to place a more efficient method of communication between the CRA and Council.

JG agreed that it was important for the CRA and others on Camposol to have a point of contact to report these incidents and get them resolved as soon as possible.

It was agreed that Bob Owen (Tel: 968 970 577 or 647 849 260) would become a central point of contact for residents to report to within Camposol and JG and GG would then be contacted to advise Masa and Aquilia directly.

6. Under Spanish law pensioners and large families receive discounted water charges. As Aqualia are supplying and billing for water on Camposol shouldn’t these discounts be available to those that qualify?

JG stated that she was aware of these discounts which were also available on other utilities. She said that even for the Spanish it was very difficult to apply and receive the grants. The only way they seemed to be successful was through local social services in cases of severe hardship.

She also felt that they would not apply to Camposol yet as water supply was still the responsibility of Masa and not Aqualia.

7. We have been approached by many people living on Camposol about the possibility of having a weekly market on Camposol as the majority of villages and towns in Spain do. Can you give us advice on how we should go about requesting the Mayor to grant a licence for a market.

JG stated that there was a major problem currently with local markets and many such as Canadas de Romero had been closed because of the constant complaints from the Civil Police of many traders not having the correct licences and being non-registered for social security and tax payment.

She said that the best method of having a market was for a street to be closed and licensed traders setting up on a set day per week. This would all be controlled by the local authority but couldn’t be put in to place on Camposol until take over by the Council.

8. There is a new group on Camposol looking at provision of facilities and activities for children. Will JG agree to meet this group to discuss how she and the council can help with this serious problem.

JG agreed that if this group contacted her she would be happy to arrange a meeting.

9. As you are aware the local Age Concern charity will soon receive its official charity status. We have been approached by Age Concern concerning the possibility of them having a small office on Camposol which can be used as a point of contact for what is a very worthy and needed cause. We do know that the Council own the small office on A Sect Commercial Centre which is currently just used a few hours a week by the ASHC. Is it possible for the Mayor to make this facility available for a short period whilst Age Concern raise enough funds together to obtain a more permanent site?

JG stated that it would not be possible to offer the use of this office as it would set a precedent for all charities to request its use.

She said that she would speak with Loius at the Camposol Business Centre to see if he would offer some facilities on a short term basis.

10. What is the latest on the Medical Centre Opening?

JG stated that the centre was now furnished and all communication lines installed. As far as she was aware it was ready to go and just waiting staffing which was the responsibility of the Murcia Regional Health Authority.

11. What is the latest on the construction of the community centre?

GG & BO were shown plans and drawings of the new centre. Both commented that it would be a very modern, light and welcome addition to Camposol.

JG stated that it should be open one year after building commenced.

GG stated that this was different to earlier information provided by JG and the Mayor that the building would be open one year after approval of the grant which was 1st March 2011.

JG then stated that it was all to do with when the grant money was received and would get further information and get back to us.

GG asked that JG organise a meeting with the Mayor as soon as possible.

JG agreed to speak with the Mayor.

The meeting closed at 12.45pm.